Ritter Versus Hitchens On The Iraq War

I have found that many people who talk drivel about a Zionist involvement in 9/11 are anti Semites. If Doug Eldritch is just a conspiracy nut, rather than a racist conspiracy nut, so be it. But you aught to be told firmly that peddling idiotic theories about who planned and carried out 9/11 is not what is acceptable on grown up blogs.

BTW I do not apologize for Zionism see

http://www.lastsuperpower.net/docs/nzccontents

A number of questions have arisen most of which can be classed as avoidance;

--- PNAC What else would people who own and run any society do except make plans to continue to own and run things? But still the world changes and change is coming ready or not. U.S. imperialism is now a shadow of its former self going from the worlds No1 creditor country to the worlds No 1 debtor. From having 50%+, of the worlds, industrial output, to (on memory) about 22 or 23%. The relative decline is quite dramatic, and people should remind themselves that booms end in busts. So incidentally keep your eyes wide open about real estate and stock markets which ruling classes would also like to control and dont.

Ignore any ruling class plans for any new century for the moment and think about what is driving developments in the real world.

Consider how the last century started and ended. Whatever the plans of the British Ruling class were I can assure you the world did not turn out the way they thought. Neither will developments this century, but if the contenders for power in the ruling class did not make plans then they would be mad and they are not mad. Thus this war was planned by the ruling elite for some sound ruling class reason.

--- "Lies of George W. Bush"

The Bush war cabinet was working on strategy after 9/11; if people do not realize this they can not be taken seriously; and despite being at war with Islamists of the Taliban and AlQaeda varieties they decided to go to war with Baathism and destroy it. Whatever the reason was for the war we can be sure it was not from any immediate threat from WMD. But everybody including the French and German ruling class believed Saddam had some degree of WMD program that would be uncovered. So the lies that have been harmful to Bush and Co were chosen by mistake because the Bush war cabinet thought that some WMDs would turn up. Nobody planned to be exposed as mistaken on WMD. Just the same as they blew it on the aircraft carrier with the mission accomplished idiocy. Just another blunder.

--- Neocon concept of democracy --- nature of democracy

--- "the captive public" and trappings of democracy

--- corporatization and democracy

--- cynical uses of nominal (as opposed to real) democracy

--- fair elections

--- plutocracy

--- modern political marketing

--- nature and methods of propaganda

Its basically just bourgeois democracy, so get over it, humanity certainly will!

They run a class society so they look at it from their ruling class point of view and thats to be expected. Meanwhile other classes that also descend from the Enlightenment will look at the problem posed by the political swamp that is the Middle East and bring our viewpoint to the table. Only imbeciles will forget that humans have been descending from the trees and this stage of historical development might not be anything like good, but its better than all that came before. The modern classes should be openly united against theocrats and feudalists and tyranny that would keep any of us in the dark ages.

--- Energy policy of the Bush administration

--- Mideast oil production

--- UNOCAL pipeline

--- WTO/debt/privatization

--- Peak Oil

No blood for oil blathering. Just think for a moment; do you believe that the Iraqi politicians, just elected by some 12 million voters, could produce a puppet Government that would go along with the US ruling- class ripping off the Iraqi peoples' oil? Do you imagine for one moment that they could get away with it? IT IS NOT ABOUT OIL, it could never be about oil because the US people would not put up with an endless stream of body bags and the Iraqi people would not put up with puppets.

--- corporatization/diversity/homogenization (and the effective similiarities with racism and classism) --- corporate self-interest --- United States world terrorism --- USA "PATRIOT" Act

When you would like to make a sensible point I could deal with it; meanwhile readers can sing this tune,

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!

Even though the sound of it

Is something quite atrocious

If you say it loud enough

You'll always sound precocious

He traveled all around the world

And everywhere he went

He'd use his word and all would say

"There goes a clever gent"

When Dukes and maharajas

Pass the time of day with me

I say me special word and then

They ask me out to tea

So when the cat has got your tongue

There's no need for dismay

Just summon up this crap

And then you've got a lot to say (not)

But better use it carefully

Or it could change your life

One night I said it to me girl

And now me girl's my wife!

No joke; no matter what the problem anywhere around the world, pseudo leftists and liberals can be found ramming a collection of words together rather than seeking truth from facts. Indeed it got so bad over the last 20 odd years, that we have the mumbo jumbo of post modernism that denies that facts are even there to be discovered or revealed from analysis and we can just pick and choose our own truth!!

--- nature of fascism

It is apparent that you would not know fascism if it jumped up and bit your arse. Ending 60 years of rotten to the core US foreign policy, and getting behind the bourgeois revolution rather than standing in its way is a huge leap in policy. Why shouldnt the US undo much of the filth that it has been responsible for creating or propping up? Most people posting on this site would not deny that the US ruling elite has been following a standard, rotten, foreign policy of propping up gangsters and tyrants of all kinds since ww2. The foreign policy establishment, are GWBs greatest critics. They are screaming that their whole lifes work is being undone; and it is. Their policies failed and were mortally wounded in the pile of rubble that was 9/11.

Dont hang your hat on distorted pieces of news about the election and pronounces on how the US Iraq project is defeated. Think laterally. Politics in Iraq is being played very hard (remember the negotiations on the constitution; they did more than just push it to the wire, but they did get an outcome). There is a small amount of carry on from some and the media that is anti war is descending on this like flies to shit.

Democratically minded people in Iraq will not make the same error as people hear are making. They will resolve any election and representation problems through processes of genuine negotiation. They will know who they voted for and they will now allow them to do the job. People want to vote and be represented, so a reasonable method, or methods will be found, and in a short time, to ensure that the mass of people are represented as they wanted.

Anti-war people ought to admit that there are progressive forces throughout the Middle- East and that they have very often been butchered under former U.S., policies; and also, that Bush has, at least formally, declared these policies to be dead; and dead because they do not serve U.S., interests!

The abandoned policies led to the dead end that 9/11 pointed to. Its always been my view that WMD is a very grave concern of the Bush war cabinet; not re Iraq, but in the ultimate sense that eventually if the war-on-terror was not fought out to victory, then sooner, or later, Washington, or some other place could be vaporized! That is the dead end. Feudalist suicide-bombers are not going to get hold of nukes, if GWB has anything to do with it. So, the war-on- terror, will continue to unfold and develop.

Some people, like the late Susan Sontag, think that terrorism will always be with us; therefore, this war is an endless undertaking. They should watch, Gone with the Wind, and think about slavery. I think that when the entire world has systems-of-government like those to be found currently in the industrialized west, then such a war would be finished. So, perhaps it may last in one way or another for the next thirty years, or more. Who can say? Whatever time it takes, would not alter the need to fight it, nor the requirement to adopt a strategy capable of leading to victory. But this stage in Iraq will not take very long and the new regime that results will be a steadfast ally against Islamic- terrorists, after all, they will have suffered mightily from them.

Islamic-terrorists, have rather dramatic agency, and must be fought and defeated. In short, they should be chased world wide. Thus after 9/11, war against the abomination that is the Taliban became inevitable and fully supportable. But what did we get from the loopy pseudo-left? Its about an oil pipeline!

Any credible strategy, for fighting this war-on-terror, must include, both stopping terrorists, and reducing the quality of their arms and training; both in quantity, and quality. This much we should be able to agree on, the war in Afghanistan put a big hole in Al-Qaeda, and the west has been hardened as a general target since the war began as of 9/11.

The only prospect for long term success, (and that is virtually all that counts), that I can conceive of is to empower the people of the Middle-East, through a modernity project of some description. IMV Bush and his inner-circle came up with the same project that Chomsky did. Only Bush is in the position to do it, and is doing it. The next do-able part of the project was to rid the world of Saddam, and Iraq of U.N., sanctions; then muddle through empowering the locals, and getting an acceptable constitution adopted; and elections held. As we speak, this is happening, and as with all war, it rolls-on, warts and all.

The war in Iraq may, in the short-term, have the effect of increasing the numbers of terrorists, but it wont increase the number of Saddam supporters! I have yet to hear an argument that victory in Iraq, (measured by the establishment of a democratic federation) will do so for either group!

Victory, throughout the region, will ultimately smash terrorists, by drying up the mass- supported issues they mobilize for; and weakening the fundamentalism common to backward societies. Advanced industrialized societies are not run by Taliban types. Honor killing of daughters, and wives is rare. Women are no longer charged with indecency, as the Australian, Annette Kellerman, was in the U.S., in 1902, just for wearing a one-piece bathing-suit. These very youthful societies are 100 years behind the west, but will make up that difference in twenty five years, or so; because of that very youth, and the fact that world development is speeding up.

The US has changed course dramatically. Hamas in Palestine is now to be worked with; Hezbollah in Lebanon; the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

Rather than allow the gangster regime of Mubarak to continue to build resentment and the eventual backlash the US are openly critical today. They want change and they are going to get it ready or not.

The pseudo-left actually want stability and couldnt even cheer the fall of that fascist tyranny in Iraq. Pathetic is too pale a word, for what is being peddled here as leftwing. This stuff has long ago degenerated into collaboration with the enemies of modernity. Even that old imperialist Rumsfeld could change enough to grasp what the new century required.

Bush has a strategic plan that he is putting forth to change the world. He doesnt mention the bourgeois revolution anymore than he proclaims himself as a representative of the ruling class. What do people expect? The real question is; objectively is that revolution what he has turned the US back to supporting? People on this site talk in feable minded turms of retreating into their own countries and allowing the Middle East to continue as the swamp that it is! There is not a hint of working with forces that are striving for liberation. Why the deafening silence about the Kurds? Why the fear of liberating Shia peoples? What is your program for changing the world?

Turning to...BVAC

Yes it is true that there are two sides to every war, but take the case of the Civil War, even Lincoln did not declare that putting an end to slavery was the principal war aim from the start. That principal war aim was unfolded later. That should not surprise anyone, it is to be expected in a class society

If Iraq turns out to be an Islamic republic run by clerics campaigning on anti-Americanism, was all of this nonsense worth it?

Yes it would; because history will not stop for any Islamic republics either. Modernity is at war with tyranny and feudal reaction. The bulk of people in Iran for example hate their ruling Mullahs and they will be overthrown. They came to power because the former US policies was to oppose democracy as they did with the coup in 1953 when they helped install the Shah. Communists and other democrats were crushed by this US freindly bastard leaving the pulpits as the only organizing platform left. 25 odd years later the full consequences came back to haunt the world. Now over 25 odd years later most Iranians are fed up to the back teeth, so the Mullahs rig elections and rule by outright brutality so the people will rise up and overthrow the Mullahs (that look almost as strong as did the old Soviet bosses in their actual decrepitude. The revolution is coming and youth (remember all the Middle East has a very youthful profile, while all Western countries, has an ageing profile), and technology with the net mobile phones highly developed pop culture etc, is going to speed things up. Nobody will have to invade Iran to liberate that proud people. They will be inspired by the democratic freedoms enjoyed right next door in Iraq and take these freedoms for themselves. Do not doubt this.

We owe it, to the fallen heroes of this just, and essentially completed, war of liberation, to come to grips with the reality of why we went to war. It was and is to start the process of draining the swamp of the entire Middle East. It is the only way of fighting to win against the current enemy of all modernity that attacked and declared unrelenting war as of 9/11. It is as correct a war as was WW2 and they both contrast with the despicable wars of aggression that almost all the rest of the post ww2 period was about.

If you doubt that the US would be condemned, try to advocate that Coalition military forces be used, regardless of UN security council vetoes by Russia or China, on virtually any peace blog and report back; we will wait without holding our breath.

-

Victory is clearly within the grasp of the Iraqi peoples.

The Iraqi people will be in control through a democratically elected government with sufficient armed forces building up to control their territory and contribute to the fall of the reactionary anti democratic governments all around them. The US troops will not remain in any large numbers other than as border protection, air cover and naval protection forces. Victory on the Iraqi front, cannot be complete while the rest of the Middle East remains a Swamp. Iraq will continue to suffer from the Mosquitoes until the whole swamp is drained. The next part of the project is the establishment of a Palestinian State and more has happened in this direction, under GWB, than had happened during the last 40 years (when settlements were increasing, not as they are now, being dismantled) and whole areas handed over to Palestinian control. The major political parties in Israel are now literally pulling themselves apart, as the reality of the defeat of the project for Eratz Israel becomes apparent.

Forcing democracy down the barrel of a gun is tough to do, at around $400 billion a pop. Isnt that the truth! So; people who think that the US is about to go rampaging around the world, as a military colossus, should get a reality check. The US is just not up to the job. The biggest contribution the US has made is by abandoning its preeminent role on the other side! All the former policies were to prop up the likes of Mubarak, and Sharon and the filth that is the Saudi government and system.

You ask me to describe the old policies remember Marcos and the Shah and the invasion of Timor by the Indonesian cleptocracy of Suharto (who murdered communists and other democrats, in vast numbers; remember the mass murder of Indo China, remember Pinochet. The US foreign policy establishment best personified by that untried war criminal Henry Kissinger was behind this failed attempt to hold back the political demands of the masses throughout the world in the perceived interests of the US ruling class. Propping up all these bastards has failed and has instead built up a well of resentment throughout the world against the US who had been held in such high esteam at the end of ww2. Remember the failed effort to back the gangster Chiang Kai-shek when a quarter of the worlds people were standing up under the leadership of Mao? Nobody can say the US ruling elite were not warned what would befall them. Remember the stupidity of backing AlQaeda with a billion dollars and getting the Saudis to pump in another billion instead of backing the democratic forces opposed to Soviet aggression in Afghanistan. All these policies failed because they attempt to stand in the way of the three big issues that are driving our era. These are that; nations want liberation, countries want independence and the people want revolution.

Your comments about electoral fraud etc, is not racist, but nave I the extreme. When all the negotiations and maneuvering of the vast number of political entities and players in Iraq is complete and a government formed, it will not mean that all problems are resolved. The attempt to paint the election process as illegitimate is both understandable and wrong. Do your sums and it will become clear to you that this is the case. For example think about just who the Kurds have elected and what type of man is President Talibani. It is better to investigate the political parties and their support base than fall a numbers argument that does not add up. Consider polls prior and after the election consider population percentages

ROBERT LOCKWOOD MILLS

Your post is a nonsense; and if you read through my posts since Comment 7 you will understand why even if you still disagree with me. It is vital to fight the war to drain the swamp of the Middle East, Iraq is but one front in this war. This war will be fought with all means available from the diplomatic to the military to the economic.

Western-style democracy always came to a land that has never known it Only racists think that Middle Easterners can't assimilate it. Only a fool thinks that the Iraqi people elect a government, knowing that these politicians are going to ask the coalition to stay a while longer, yet wants more than anything else for our so-called liberating troops to leave at once. They do not! They Want them to go ASAP after the mad bombers and Baathists have been subdued and their own forces trained to continue the fight. They know that it is the Iraqi people themselves who must ultimately win the war.

...FLORIDIOT

Does more than digress. He is still yammering on about oil years after it should have been apparent to all that the US could never install the puppets required to nick it. Get up to speed and deal with the election process that we are now discussing.

...JOSE CHUNG

It seems to me that people are all over the place on this war, both left and right. The vast bulk of what is passing itself of a left though is nothing but a pseudo left. It is only left in form but it is right in essence.

http://www.lastsuperpower.net/ has quite a deal of discussion of this if you want to look around the site.

...CATHERINE

Your question Have you gone over and asked any Iraqis what they would like? is to be answered by the results of the election. Listen to their elected representatives and do not assume that any expert knows how to represent their constituents better than those that were elected.

All this talk about Iraqi love of tyranny could be just a well applied to the Japanese. Thankfully Macarthur ignored your type of expert advise, and instead started that country on the road to a bourgeois democracy.

Iraqis do not need to be abandoned while the likes of Jordanian terrorists cross the border with their Jihadists, to impose terror on the people, they need to be listened to and their army trained ASAP. Keep your eye on the Kurds who will undoubtedly be the most powerful force for liberation in the whole region.

Its time to wake up and smell the coffee, because the times they are a changing and changing fast.

...ROBERT LOCKWOOD MILLS

An Iraqi would have no frame of reference for the word, no matter what his branch of Islam or his politics. He doesn't relate to left-wing vs. right-wing,

You know not your ass from your elbow! Iraqi communists celebrated long and hard on the streets of Iraq when Saddam fell. There are a great many forces for modernity struggling in Iraq.

...CATHERINE

Uninformed ideology serves no one, and particularly not the Iraqi people.

Bravo. Now deal with some aspect of this war of liberation that is complex.

...BVAC

The United States was the liberator in Iraq and the 2,165 dead and 16,000 wounded casualties (half of which were returned to active duty in about 72hrs) suffered were for the purpose of launching the bourgeois revolution for the entire Middle East.

The ruling class through their ruling elite can not say this directly anymore than it could say that there is a ruling class and proletarians only work here. Nevertheless that is the stage of history we find ourselves in.

The original justification was all they thought they would have to say, because they believed it like every body else. Since that angle flopped the actual mission has been revealed and they are saying it as plainly as one could possibly expect (without taking out a copy of Das Capital and bashing you on the head with it.)

This $400 billion dollar boondoggle was worth every penny and the heroic 2,165 lives. Because there is no alternative that will work.

Bush Blair and others are bungling revolutionaries on a steep learning curve but there is no alternative than liberating the whole world by one means or another. In the case of Iraq it had to be a military intervention, not so in Lebanon. Political and economic pressure aught to be the main method, but they are all on the table. Modernity is at war with reaction.

holding elections where pro-western secular candidates were squashed by anti-American Muslim clerics, proves conclusively, that its not about nicking oil but about genuine liberation.

The Iraqi people are being put firmly in control and their own constitution is good stuff by standards. Read it. It will influence the next 20years of Middle Eastern history as profoundly as the fall of the Berlin Wall influenced the last 20 odd in Eastern Europe.

This Issue has now broken through to a whole new level, and pretending that nothing has changed will never do; so people interested in Iraq and studying the issue from another point of view can find a huge amount of discussion and collected articles at http://www.lastsuperpower.net/

Source : https://www.bradblog.com/?p=2196

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We Did Participate in a Hoax: New Documentary Offers New Revelations About the Bush Admins Phony Case for the Iraq War Scam

Source:The Brad Blog

We Did Participate in a Hoax: New Documentary Offers New Revelations About the Bush Admins Phony Case for the Iraq War Scam